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The State of the Apostolic
Nation - Romance Survey 2003 Romance and dating habits—everyone’s an expert, but few people can speak beyond their own personal experience and some anecdotal evidence. No more! As in Romance Survey 2000 or Apostolic Spiritual Disciplines 2002, ninetyandnine.com offers a candid snapshot of where we are today. Not all the answers will please you, but real life seldom does. The diversity of answers and experiences was astounding. Nearly every type of experience and opinion is included, and we’re just sorry we couldn’t include more. For some personal thoughts on the matter, visit “Traumatized By The Romance Survey.” Now we need to hear from you. What surprised, shocked or amazed you? What confirmed your feelings or deepened your urgency to address problems? Let us know by writing a letter today. Special thanks to Paula North for crunching the numbers (again).
Interesting Note: While 16 years-old seems to be the overwhelming reality and expectation, isn’t it a bit disturbing that while only three percent believe 12 year-olds should date, six percent (or double the expectation) of 12 year-olds starting dating. Likewise, while 22 percent felt that teens should start dating at 18, only seven percent actually did (most starting much younger). It appears expectations and realities are quite different.
Answers Included: ■ Dating is overrated. I think going out as groups is far more relevant, because you have a much better chance of really getting to know a person. There are too many masks in a formal “date.” ■ I agree with the “base” theory (that) if a kid starts kissing at the age of 10, etc. they probably aren’t going to make it to their wedding day a virgin. Once you’ve done one thing, you’re probably not gonna be satisfied with just that, you’ll want more. ■ Depends on their maturity level. My 16 year-old has yet to go on a “date” mainly because he has not found someone with potential. ■ It’s almost impossible not to date in high school. If your parents don’t allow it you may end up resenting them. Just make sure you hold your parents’ trust. ■ No one under the age of 18 has the first clue about what they truly want in a spouse, and very few people under the age of 20 or 21 even have the semblance of an idea of what they want in life, let alone a spouse. I think 17 is a good age, because it gives you a few years to start figuring out what you want ■ There are so many other opportunities that life offers, when you tie yourself down with one person too early in life, much of the time and effort that you give to that individual could have been used for other life-growing activities ■ I don’t think single dating should be done until 18. Double dates or group dates could start at 16. Kids any younger are still growing up and maturing and don’t need to devote all of their attention or affection to one person. And I’ve seen too many dramas between 13 and 14 year olds who got jealous. There is time for that later. Now if it is for a banquet or some other social function, then I think they could be a little younger. ■ Since people are waiting longer to get married because of education and other reasons, why open yourself up to temptation too early? ■ I think teens need some time to figure themselves out before they start throwing other people into the mix. Once you start dating, you start collecting baggage—yours and that of every person you go out with. The fewer people you seriously date, the less baggage you’ll carry with you into your marriage. ■ In my opinion, there is no point in dating unless the possibility of marriage is in the near future (2 or 3 years away). The original intent of dating was to find a potential spouse, but society has turned it into an activity where two people can get the thrill and excitement of romance and affection with no expectation of a long-term commitment.
Answers Included: ■ Yes. She was cute. ■ No, because the Bible says be not unequally yoked. ■ I have done so because there are fewer and fewer decent single Pentecostal guys and the older the female, the more intimidated the male. ■ I dated non-Apostolics after several failed “in church” relationships because I found that non-UPC men have not been around all the incestuous dating that occurs within the UPC and their hearts haven’t been tarnished by rumors, standards issues, etc. I have also found they seem to be more respectful of women, whereas UPC men will push the envelope physically as far as they can. ■ I did in college and deeply regretted it later. I realized that I only dated them because I wanted to feel “accepted” by “normal” people. ■ No. What fellowship has light with darkness? ■ No. Church is such an important part of my life. I want to share that with the person I am in a relationship with. ■ It depends on the person. If they are a good person then maybe, but if they are involved in drinking, smoking, drugs, etc., (then) no I wouldn’t. ■ In the past I’ve answered this question, “No.” Now, I just have to be careful. My only serious relationship was with an Assemblies of God girl, who happened to have been my best friend for five years prior to dating. I knew her heart and what she believed and she was open to the Apostolic doctrine, so I felt okay with it. Now, if I date a non-Apostolic, I’m careful to just date casually, and include some Sunday night services in our outings to see her response. ■ I have but I wouldn’t recommend it. It’s way easier to slack off spiritually from their influence than for you to encourage them to step out of their comfort zone. ■ Yes. Religion is not a sticking point with me unless (they’re) agnostic or atheist. ■ No. Because I work with the youth of our church and I wouldn’t want them to misconstrue what could be an innocent lunch on my part with an unsaved co-worker to help justify a late night date with a testosterone-filled classmate. ■ I date committed Christians. Their religious affiliation is a non-issue for me, only their faith. ■ Yes; the majority of guys that I date are non-Apostolics and are non-Christians. I had the mentality that, ‘It doesn’t matter because it’s not like we’re married,’ but it really does matter. Dating guys out of ‘the church’ puts you in many positions where you are left defending what you believe and your morals. Unless you’re extremely strong-willed, dating a non-Christian can do serious damage. (Even dating guys “in the church” can be a bad thing. So many times one is left thinking, “Who do I date?”) ■ Yes. We are all God’s children. If they are attracted to me, then they may be searching for God and see something in me that they like. ■ No, I am a Holy Ghost-filled Apostolic and I only date other Holy Ghost-filled Apostolics. ■ No, I was raised in an unequally yoked family and I wouldn’t want to do that to my children ■ I do date a non-Apostolic. Simply because I dated him even before I got saved. I’m not about to discard him right now. Just pray and fast about it. Cause I’ve seen that he’s rapidly changing for the better, glory to God.
Answers Included: ■ No. (I) married a Catholic. ■ No! There are not enough men in this faith around my age! Where are all the great 26-30 year olds? ■ I can think of probably up to 10 single guys who have the qualities I would want in a husband. That doesn’t necessarily mean I have my choice of any of the 10 though! *lol* ■ Yes—meat markets like Youth Congress, General Conference, Bible Quizzing, camp, etc. make it easy to find someone. ■ I have dated some preachers with very high profile names as well as saints and have found that the saints treat the ladies better. ■ No. A lot of Apostolic men have this unattainable image for Apostolic women. If we are confident, educated, and independent, we are not as attractive as some young, stupid preacher’s wife wannabe ■ No—inaccessibility. We need to fellowship more with other Apostolic organizations and do more to promote opportunities for young people to interact with their peers from other places. But not “Singles’ conferences”—please! ■ No. Many of the Apostolic young men around here make it abundantly clear with their actions that young women who are educated and intelligent intimidate them. (I’ve had them cite that as a breakup line). It’s demeaning to be expected to leave your brain at the door in a relationship. I’d rather not date an Apostolic who makes me feel badly about myself and date a non-Apostolic who can still talk to me about the things of God, and not whip out strange interpretations of Ephesians when I contradict him. ■ Yes. I have made a point to surround myself with guys that share a lot of the same convictions and outlooks on life that I have. I, therefore, have been able to “date” good Apostolic guys who have made good friends first and we were then able to enjoy each other’s company. ■ I wasn’t looking, and my wife showed up from 450 miles away. ■ Yes, plenty. I attend a Bible college. There are many to chose from. Not many that are my type to chose from. The organization is huge it’s just a matter of getting out there and meeting the right guys! ■ Not really, I do not feel that I have met very many girls that I felt met my desires in both intellectual and spiritual matters—very few actually. ■ Yeah, but they are few and far between anymore because sites like this are ruining Pentecostal youth because it takes away from holiness and a holy lifestyle. ■ I wouldn’t say plenty. A modest amount maybe, and definitely more of selection than some girls have. Unfortunately it’s not like shopping for shoes. They have to choose you back. ■ I only need one—how much variety do I need? This isn’t a smorgasbord we’re talking about. ■ No! No! No! No! ■ Oh yeah! I went to a Christian liberal arts college. Plenty of girls there. It was a lot tougher when I left college though. A lot of the women I met after that seemed to be too interested too quickly. ■ Plenty—but not quality. There were few that I could sit down and have intelligent conversations with and few could be found whose first priority wasn’t a pretty girl dangling from his arm. ■ Yes! Because I’m not going to date every girl in the world, only the ones I think would help my ministry ■ Yes. Long distance dating is an option, and a good one at that. ■ No, but I felt that God would provide the right person and He did—36 years ago tomorrow. ■ No, but for a long time I wasn’t personally ready for a relationship so God didn’t let anyone show up on the scene to confuse me. ■ No. Because I have only been in an Apostolic church for a year and there are no good looking women in our church. ■ No. It’s so unfair! Somebody help me please! I am from a very small, humble district. It’s not that I’m unrealistic nor that I set standard so high so that no one can realistically reach them. It’s just that I know what I’m looking for and aside from that, I’m not interested in compromise. ■ No at all. I am an Apostolic, a minority, and a female with a Master’s level degree. It is very difficult to find someone like myself who values education, but still upholds Apostolic beliefs. (If you know someone, let me know!) ■ Not in Missouri—there are no guys in Missouri ■ Yes, I definitely believe that our Apostolic young ladies are the most beautiful, sweetest, and brightest young ladies. However, I am disappointed to find many of them choosing to get married in younger age. When a young man reaches my age or older, selection becomes much slimmer than the world because most of the good looking girls are married by the time they are 21. However, I also realize that one who hasn’t married yet are usually wise, classy and intelligent. I’d rather have a wise, classy and intelligent one anyway. ■ Not plenty. A few. Made marriage decision with the 4th “candidate.” ■ Not in Arkansas. ■ Nope. In my country there aren’t many Apostolic churches. Take my city, it only has one Apostolic church and there’s like three or four guys in my youth group, all of whom are not mate-candidates. ■ There are plenty of Apostolic young ladies to choose from. Finding a genuine, anointed, ambitious, and strong one is a different story. ■ I waited on God and He made me a promise of a time and a person. It came to pass. The Lord spoke to my husband while at Texas Bible College (TBC) and told him to go to Virginia and when he got there He would give him a wife. I was there waiting for the promise to be fulfilled. Jesus can do anything that you believe and wait on Him for. ■ Sure. But if you play the game right, you only need one. :-)
Answers Included: ■ Potential mates as in they share my beliefs, yes. Otherwise, I am still trying to figure out exactly what I want, so I don’t date guys who all have the same personality types. ■ Yes, it keeps you out of trouble, needless hurts, and keeps you from wasting time and energy on somebody who isn’t going to mean anything in the end. ■ No, because you don’t know who a potential mate is until you date someone who isn’t. ■ Yes. As my mom always told me, “You marry who you date”...and she was right. ■ Yes. I feel that you should date with purpose. People in the Bible didn’t “date” just for fun. I think if at any point in a relationship you feel that you could never marry that person you should end it right then. It is a waste of your time and theirs. ■ If someone is of the opposite sex then they are a potential mate. So yes. ■ No. You limit your experiences. You also deprive others of learning from you. Besides, love is funny, you just never know.... ■ Yes. Because human emotions are not designed to be started and stopped, started and stopped, started and stopped. It’s like a car with no brakes. If you bail out halfway down the hill, you get hurt. ■ No, I’m young and in no rush!
“Yes” Answers Included: ■ Yes. I am glad because otherwise I would probably have not married her. ■ Yes. I wish that I didn’t because there was nothing really to look forward to on further dates, and things seemed to progress faster than they would have if I had not kissed on that first date. ■ I expect a kiss or a hug on the first. I am never ashamed of what I have done on a first date. ■ I have kissed on the first date before. Am I glad I did it? Yes—it was my first kiss. But he was also dating someone at the time, and they went on to get married. (Oops!) ■ Yes. At least I always tried to kiss. Was always glad and never regretted it. ■ Probably a couple of times. It didn’t matter one way or another. ■ Yeah, sorta. Actually, I’m not a fan of the first-date kissy business but over the weekend I actually met a girl through a friend. It was there, so I kissed her on the first night. ■ Yes. Never with an Apostolic guy though. It breaks down too many barriers too fast. Allowing the physical aspect of a relationship to come into play that early just makes you way too comfortable with the other person before you even know them. ■ Yes, I really wish I hadn’t. It was a foretelling of what the entire relationship was going to be based on. Big mistake! ■ Yes. Carpe diem! You may never have another chance. ■ Yes, my first kiss was on my first date with my first boyfriend. I wish now that I had waited because: 1) It wasn’t all that great, and; 2) I would have liked for my first kiss to have been with someone that I really loved. ■ Yes, lots! Am I glad? Definitely yes! I converted in my 20s, and had plenty of experience. Kissing on the first date wasn’t a big deal for me as a Christian. It really depended on whether anything sparked between my date and me. Sometimes there was a lot of kissing, sometimes there was a kiss good night, and sometimes nothing. ■ Yes; and no, I shouldn’t have. ■ Kissed, but not exactly on first date—at youth camp. ■ Very few times. Not ever was I glad that I did that. It brought the respect level down on both individuals. ■ Yes and No. Well, it might have been okay if the kiss was any good, but uh, it wasn’t worth it. If your date drools during dinner, that may be a good sign they aren’t a good kisser. (I wish I would have seen the signs.) ■ Yes. Even though we are still friends I wish I hadn’t kissed them at all, because our lives took us down separate paths and now he’s married. I am friends with his wife, but somehow I feel almost wrong for kissing him at all. I feel that I could be a better friend to her if it wasn’t for the fact that her husband and I share those memories. ■ Yes, I always did. I wish I would have been a little more discerning with who got my kisses, but starting to date at fifteen did not help. I was way too young to realize that I should have valued myself more. ■ Yeah—and I regretted it. In other words, I’m not glad I did it. Even though I wasn’t saved yet, I still get chills thinking about it. It just didn’t feel right. ■ Well I hadn’t up until a few weeks ago. Ha ha! And I am glad I did. Just cause I do believe with my whole heart he is the one for me. “No” Answers Included: ■ No, I guess not. I regret not kissing more often. ■ No, and I am glad I didn’t. The physical part of a relationship, even kissing, should be reserved for marriage. ■ No. I’m very glad. I made it to “sweet sixteen and never been kissed,” and never kissed anyone else but the man who became my husband. ■ Nope. Why peak at the start? ■ No. Very glad I didn’t ■ I have never kissed a girl yet. I am glad I have waited thus far. I hope to only kiss one girl in my entire life. ■ No. After seeing 4 out of 5 of my childhood girlfriends get in trouble with guys and more times than not, get pregnant, I am more hesitant than most to get physically involved, kissing or not. When one friend became pregnant, she told me despite my own reserved manner that she always thought it would be me. That has made me over-examine my actions with any male friend. ■ No. I am glad I didn’t. Most of my “first” dates didn’t turn into second dates. However, you can usually tell this within the first hour or so of the date. ■ No. I’m glad I haven’t kissed every guy I dated, because now that I am older, I see some of them occasionally and am really glad I can face them without ‘remembering’. ■ No way! My first kiss is going to the man I marry.
Interesting Note: If these stats are correct, then the one-third of brave Apostolic women who ask a man out will have an almost two-thirds chance that the man they ask will accept. Answers Included: ■ Yes. Did. Married her. ■ Would still not ask a man out, but may flirt more to give him the necessary assurance that if he were to ask I would accept ■ The only man I ever asked out is the one I married. ■ I think times are changing and it is perfectly fine for a woman to ask a man out. It seems that guys like girls to make that bold move. ■ No, as much as I talk about being a strong female, I still prefer a guy ask, besides, it keeps me from being shot down. ■ I did accept if asked, but my Mom always seemed to raise her eyebrows of question and concern with the girls who did approach me first. ■ Yes. Why not? Are we that hung up on gender roles and expectations that were the norm 50 years ago? That’s absurd. ■ I probably would’ve accepted. Alas! I’ll never know. ■ I asked my husband to a hayride. I didn’t know that he had fleeced the Lord that his wife would ask him out on a date! First and last time I ever asked anyone :) ■ I think I have before. Guys have no guts these days. Not only have the majority lost all their manners, but many expect girls to give them hints or do the asking. ■ Yes, if someone was that interested in me, I need to take the time to get to know that woman. She could be the greatest fan of my life. Men need their own fan club. ■ No, as a female there are many pleasures to be had by being adored. You are robbing yourself of this by taking initiative. ■ I was taught to be a gentleman and ask the lady out, not the other way around. ■ Yes. Sometimes you just can’t drop enough hints. ■ Yes. Women are hard to read. If you know that she likes you, it makes things easier. ■ Definitely! Life is an adventure; we shouldn’t let our egos get in the way. ■ Yes. I am a modern woman, educated, with personal income. ■ When I was a non-Apostolic I would probably ask a man out, I didn’t know any better. When I became a Christian eventually I learned that a husband is supposed to be the head, and spiritually speaking if he doesn’t take the lead in pursuing me, it shows a lot about who wears the pants in the relationship and how deep their understanding of God's word is (not very deep). ■ As a man, no. The man should be the pursuer. If a woman is that desperate, she is bad news. ■ Yes. If a girl is interested in me, and I’m interested in her, then it doesn’t matter who takes the initiative and asks. ■ I have never asked a man out. I am old fashioned and like to be chased. ■ Yes, as a woman, I have asked a man out. I wouldn’t recommend it. I got the date, but I sat there wondering, “If I hadn’t asked him, would he have asked me?” Too much pressure.
Answers included: ■ Skin on skin that is normally covered by clothes = too far. ■ Physically, in an ideal world, nobody would hold hands until after marriage. Jesus understands human weaknesses. ■ Oral sex is too far! ■ Personally, I would say anything more then French kissing would be to far. ■ Touching/Kissing below chin is too far. You prevent mistakes by being accountable to yourselves and others. Realize that once you give it away it’s gone. And I’m not just talking about sex ... don’t give away your body, your respect for yourself, your integrity and character, your intimate moments with your future mate (who probably isn’t the person you are currently messing around with). ■ My husband and I set boundaries at the beginning of our relationship and although it was difficult to sometimes abide by those, because we had set them, it was easier to know to draw the line and to stay committed to those boundaries ■ If you have to ask if it is too far, then it is too far. ■ It is physically too far to touch any part of their body with any part of yours below the waist (or to touch a woman’s breasts). Period. Once you’re engaged, avoid complete privacy altogether, because that’s when it’s easier to slip and to justify it. ■ We never felt we went too far. It seemed right and not wrong since we were so in love. We heard the message and would amen them but things were different behind the scenes. Still married 34 years later and may have missed heaven if He had returned but we wouldn’t have done it differently even today. I don’t think most young people do anything differently than we did and that was to go too far—but far was fine to us or so it seemed. ■ Whoa, I don’t know. ■ I think discounting arms, anything below the neck and above the ankles is too far. Back rubs are nice, but too often lead to other things because they are so nice, so it’s best to steer clear of them. ■ Use birth control. ■ However far you want to take it is fine if you are both adults. Just take measures that will prevent them. ■ It’s different for everyone. You prevent mistakes by staying out of environments that are conducive to those mistakes. ■ Here lies my current dilemma.=) At this time we’ve established a rule that kissing and hugging is the limit. It’s very hard. But we’ve realized the guilt for going further isn’t worth it and it really begins messing with your walk with God. It gives the devil ammunition for you to feel condemnation over anything you do or say regarding a godly life. Prayer is the key to keeping virtuous even after mess-ups. ■ Heavy French kissing. Married couples have told me that French kissing is still up there with the most intimate moments they share. I do not feel it’s acceptable to be that intimate with someone you do not want to marry. It starts something that there is no hope of finishing. ■ I recommend holding hands while kissing to prevent those hands from going other places. ■ I think the best way to prevent mistakes, is to view holiness and purity as a destination rather than a line. If purity is viewed as a line, a couple is likely to try to get as close to the line without crossing it (i.e. we are okay as long as we don’t do such-n-such). However, if you view it in this manner, you are likely to get so close to the line that you end up making a mistake. However, if you view purity as a destination you would tend to do anything and everything to keep your relationship pure—it all comes down to your mindset, and your motive between remaining ‘pure’ ■ Physically you should not be doing anything. The only thing that might be okay is holding hands, but that’s up to your pastor ■ If you are doing something that would make the girl’s father beat you to a pulp for that is too far. ■ Tough question. I think we all have limits based upon our experiences. I was very sexually experienced before I converted, so sex wasn’t much of an issue for me. Actually, I was very surprised at the number of girls at the Christian college and after college who wanted to have sex with me. Obviously, having sex moves a relationship to a different level. However, I think that’s more of an issue for those who are sexually inexperienced, immature, or use sex as a means to try and move a relationship to a more serious level. Perhaps my experiences are atypical, but Christians are human too and have needs. Sometimes, sex is just sex—even for Christians. I’ve been fortunate to have known a lot of Christian and non-Christian women. Sex really becomes an issue as one gets older and for those who have had prior sexual experience, either prior to conversion or from a previous marriage. I’ve observed that the Church typically does a poor job of understanding their needs. ■ Kissing, hugging, even snuggling is acceptable. When you start feeling that you are attracted beyond the normal he’s-cute-and-I-like/love-him attraction, then you know it is too far. ■ The more that you save for marriage, the more exciting your marriage will be. ■ Coming from a generation that made-out at the campgrounds just as much as we prayed, I think that anything beyond kissing is off limits. ■ I was told once that you should be able to come home and look yourself in the mirror and say “I behaved myself like a Christian tonight.” I think that pretty well sums it up! ■ Mistakes are prevented by constantly bringing the flesh under subjection by being grounded in the Word, prayer, and fasting. ■ Good question, don’t know.
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