A Month in the Life

Thank God....this opens up a massive amount of souls that we can now reach.
 

About bloody time!
 

did anyone get up and leave
 

the Amish among us must feel like the organization is headed for hell!!
 

I can't wait to see how few souls are "reached" by such an enormous amount of money. TV advertising is no doubt one of the most expensive endeavors for such a cash-strapped organization to undertake.

Missionaries could take that same money and "reach" a whole lot more souls with it than could ever a TV ad.
 

OK, "the vote" passed!
So let's now get to work and UNITE even more to win the lost!
How about if we ALL PRAY that GOD will utilize this mode of communication to spread HIS precious Word?

Instead of griping, why don't you pray that the man of God will be filled with godly conviction, the Fruit of the Spirit and without compromise as he preaches or advertizes this Gospel on TV.
I think that will be much more productive than complaining

Sheesh, you complainers sound like the Democrats in congress! Have faith that God knows what He's doing!
The people who opposed this vote don't feel bad about preaching on the Internet (which is FULL of every perverse thing under the sun) so what's the difference with TV?
We are USING TV to promote the Gospel, TV is NOT using us!!!

Come on people, have a heart, there are literally millions and millions of lost souls out there and we can't undertake this massaive mission with only door-knocking and inviting them to an Easter play.

Wake up and smell the Starbucks...JESUS IS COMING!!!.... and if it takes TV, sky-writing, billboards, flyers, the Internet, radio and MOST of all, loving your lost neighbor and involving yourself in their life to be a BRIGHT LIGHT, then I say GO FOR IT!!!!!

I trust Bro Haney, he's a true man of God and I believe in his vision for the lost because for MANY years, I veiwed from the nearby city of San Jose when he pastored in Stockton. What a dedicated & sold-out man of God that he was and still is!!!

Furthermore as we progress in technology, the TV and the Internet WILL be the same unit for Pete's sake!

Instead of grumbling about this, PRAY PRAY PRAY that souls will be saved.....this is yet ANOTHER mode of witnessing that can progress the Glorious Gospel of our Lord & God, Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
Elaine Hodges
San Jose, California
ps. If preaching on TV is so wrong, what do you think the fore-fathers of Pentecost would have thought of preaching on the Internet????...AND just because we preach or advertise on TV doesn't give a Saint the liberty to own a TV if it has been his conviction not to have one...this is for the LOST not US!
 

"I can't wait to see how few souls are "reached" by such an enormous amount of money." Are you serious?? Agree or disagree with the TV issue, that is a sick attitude to have. You should be thrilled for every soul that is saved regardless the amount of money spent. Could that money be better spent? We'll see. But good grief..don't be so excited about wanting to see a method fail. You might want to check your motives.
 

"The people who opposed this vote don't feel bad about preaching on the Internet " - I think that's a pretty generic statement. Just for the record, a lot of those opposed to TV are opposed to webcasting, too. "Wake up and smell the coffee."
 

Maybe at the next GC we can vote on if men and women can sit on the same side of the church. Or perhaps we can discuss whether or not we should use them 'letric guitars in church. C'mon people!!! If this is the biggest issue the United Pentecostal church has going, we are in a lot more trouble than we know. TV, how ridiculous it is that we are even discussing it. The mormons are sending out missionaries by the thousands every day, (they have their own cable station that is very proffesional by the way) charismatics are reaching hundreds of thousands at acquire the fire rallies. But we here we are discussing TV, what a joke we have become
 

I like the idea the previous poster from Denver has, I mean come on, we should be just like all the other religions.
 

This is so sad to me. I have attended oneness churches that allow televisions and oneness churches that do not allow television. The difference in the level of carnality was astounding to me. The flesh really is weak.

The television watchers had a lot more trouble with the flesh although they would all deny it passionately and angrily they may even scream at you and call you names. I have lived to see their children to become cold and hardened against the things of God.

I see a obviously UPC family walking down the street. Grandma looks very holy and clean. Daughter has a tight dress permed to smithereens hair and a not so friendly attitude. The granddaughter is wearing a miniskirt and has trimmed hair. They want to blend in with Egypt so badly. They cringe at the idea of being a peculiar person set apart, "How archaic!" Give me Television! Give me Television! You here the refrain. Their heart is horrified at carrying the Christian cross. Yes, Grandmaw is Pentecostal! So am I! Get out of my face, holiness preacher. Let me blend!"

Yes, television has passed and the price will be great, but really in the hearts of the cold "used to be holiness" folks television was already there, along with all the baggage that carnality brings with it.

No thank you. I will follow the narrow way, the path of righteousness is leading me where I want to go.
Thank you.
 

I know some of you are more comfortable publishing your comments anonymously, but if you’re willing it would be interesting to see what part of the country you are from. A name would also be nice if that is your comfort level. You can put your name, and where you’re from, at the beginning of the end of your post.

Also, this resolution deals with TV advertising ONLY. It does not allow for televised services in the sense that someone will have their entire service broadcast, or some kind of made-for-TV gospel show. However, there is some ambiguity in how “advertising” gets defined (see the above post). The resolution also lets stand the prohibition against UPCI ministers having a television in their home. Yes, I do realize in this age of DVD’s and computers with TV tuners that this is also kind of ambiguous.

It really boils down to what’s in our hearts. No one can legislate holiness. I’ve seen people who have all the “externals” right but their spirit is about as ugly as a burned over forest. No one can make enough “rules” to cover every technology that comes our way. That’s what the Holy Ghost is supposed to help us with.
 

oh good TV
 

Maybe at the next GC we can vote on if all upc saints can have TV's in there homes
 

Well Good... I am happy that the world will be able to see that we are not a cult and some close minded church.
 

now we can come out of the 1940's for once
 

oh no!!! Trimmed hair!! (GASP)

Please, can't we focus on something else besides outward appearance for at least five minutes. The Pharisees were focused on the outside and cared little for the inside. Sometimes I look at the UPC and think "The Pharisees". How sad this movement has become.
 

And yes..most of us are more comfortable publishing our comments as "Anonymous" because if we dare to express an opinion that is contrary to "the manual" we will be labeled "liberal" faster than you can blink your eye. Difference of opinion and discussion is not allowed if you are in any type of leadership position. So many of us are forced to make anonymous comments...or be branded for life. And before you call me a hypocrite, let me explain that I have been on both sides of the fence and I still value the oneness movement enough that I am willing to put up with what goes along with it. For now.
 

I certainly wouldn’t call you a hypocrite and I do understand. I was just trying to encourage those who were willing to put their name and/or where they live to do so. Sometimes the demographics are pretty interesting.
 

Well Good... I am happy that the world will be able to see that we are not a cult and some close minded church.


I posted this comment my name is Jimmy Braswell, I just didn't want to register in order for my name to show up, so that I don't get junk mail.

There is a lot more to do now in 2007 than they had in 1940 when all people had to do in life was sit around and look at 4 walls. The methods of spreading the gospel has got to change with the times.
Note, I said METHOD not MESSAGE. The MESSAGE is still the same
 

Slowy but surley we are caving in to the things around us. Instead of being seperated from the world we are tending to be drawing more closer toward it. Imagine all the other things this will alow to come into the upci.
Now it gives everyone a chance to go out and get a tv. I mean the saint can now just watch the service at home and also watch anything else that is on.
This is truely a sad day in the upci.
 

Good job UPC! You finally did it! You sold out your bowl of Beans. Of course this has slowly creaped in over the years with Video, Internet, DVD's and now TV! Wow!
The only thing this opens up is the " I told you so" The UPC would give in sooner or later. This is the death of UPC. We can now group you with Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn,Oral Roberts,and the rest of the money grubbing idiots on the TV waves. Congratulations !!!!!!
 

"Joseph said...
Thank God....this opens up a massive amount of souls that we can now reach."

Save all those souls out there? The one comment I would always here from my family was they respected our stand against TV. I mize as well turn into YouTube to see all the pentecostal idiots out there now. Holiness went out the door years ago, what makes you think this will be some sort of blessing?
 

How about billboards in bar rooms lots of lost souls there. Lets rid ourselves of His Holiness then they'll come by th' masses.
 

What amazes me in all of this, is the harsh, bitter, mean-spirited nature of the comments coming from those opposed to t.v.

I am a life-long, third generation member of the UPCI. I'm 31 years old and realizing more now than ever before in my life the importance of holiness. Yes, the "standards" of the church have become more loose over the years. Yes, I believe it can truly be said that no one ever let their "standards" down and became MORE spiritual. However, it bothers me to watch the church in it's current state. Breaking into "camps" and "cliques". On one side we have the "holy" and on the other the "carnal", and through it all they spend so much time spewing venom at each other that they miss the world passing by, going to hell.

In my church, I have dear friends who have become isolated from the church, and almost bitter because of the changes. Changes in our music, changes in the way we run Sunday School, changes in the appearances of saints, etc...

I have found myself, over and over again lately, having to stop them and say, if you're really THAT concerned about it, then pray. Before you get mad and self-righteous...pray. Before you speak badly of your brothers and sisters...pray. Before you get disgruntled and speak doom and gloom and pull away from the body of Christ...pray. Before you talk about finding another church...pray. If you REALLY believe God is still on the throne, is still in control, is still concerned about His church, and stills wants revival in this hour, THEN JUST PRAY!!!

God did not fall off the throne on Friday morning when the resolution passed. He didn't cease to be in control. He didn't call off plans for endtime revival...so if the direction the church has now chosen bothers you THAT MUCH, then pray! Pray for a revival of holiness and purity in our saints and our leaders, if you feel they are taking the wrong path. The Bible teaches that we should not speak evil of dignataries. How much more does that apply when the people you're speaking evil of, who made the decision, are Pastors, and ministers of the gospel?! And don't say your comments weren't speaking evil...because the ones I've read here sure aren't blessings...so they must be curses!

The fact of the matter is, I have a feeling that the bulk of comments made, have been made by carnal minded individuals, and those who are bound by a spirit of self-righteousness...talk about "Pharisees".

By the way, just a little additional note to hopefully help someone...the Lord dealt with me a few years ago after a long period in which I had become critical and began to notice faults in the church and came to the conclusion that we were going to hell in a handbasket. One night in prayer, he spoke into my spirit that there were only two reasons why ANYONE had a critical, fault-finding, or judgemental spirit. One, was because of undealt with hurt, and pain in their own lifes; and two, was because of a self-righteous spirit. I ask you, which one do you fall in to?

Again, if this decision bothers you all that much, stop with your facetious, angry comments AND PRAY ALREADY!

John in Charleston, WV
 

The UPCI is not "The Church" it is simply an organization. This organization has been used mightily in the past and hopefully it will be used in the future.

However, we must never confuse an organization with "The Church" there are plenty of individuals that are born again, justified sanctified, Bible believing Holy Ghost filled, one God believers that have never been apart of the UPC. God saves souls that seek after him and obey His Word.

If the organization leaves off separation from the things of this world that's when I leave the organization. I will follow God not man. Of course, this is done with prayer.Much prayer, much tears, much sorrow, but with much determination to remain pure, clean, separated and on fire with the zeal of the Holy Ghost. Purify my Heart, Cleanse every part.

By the way, revival will come when hearts are changed - Big crowd does not equal Big Revival!
 

Its just a slippery slope issue. We all know that if you give an inch most people and pastors are going to stretch it to a mile. But that would only reveal the heart, wouldn't it? So, it is a matter of the heart. Even sinners will be disspointed at the apparent hypocrisy of this recent amendment. After 30 years of explaining to my sinner family why I don't watch TV or go to movies, my family will go "What?" Of course I won't mention it to them, but they will find out on their own. It only makes it harder to excuse the advertisments while trying to live an explimerary life in front of your sinner friends and family. Too hard. After 30 years, I am out of here! There is no apparent logic in this recent desicion. And um, when was the last time any of you who want the advertising to do your job for you, actually spoke to a stranger at length on the street about God?
 

just didn't want to see an isue pass that could divide. today tv is not the answser for evangelism unity and and 1 on 1 soul winning is. this issue comming up now in the last days could be an attack on unity to hinder revival. that is why I am against it
 

It is important to rember Who we worship. (Uh, that would be Jesus, in case you forgot) We cannot allow minor things to divide us so. A conviction for holiness is never an excuse for a poor attitude. These kinds of situations take the focus away from the whole point of it all.
 

Love the comments...

For those worried about the loss of our outward holiness and out crying the carnality and lack of separation...

1) Last time I checked Jesus was hanging out in weddings where people were drunk, hung out at bars and seedy areas of town where prostitutes felt comfortable and I believe he pretty much looked like everyone else around him.

- In other words - It is more important to BE holy than to LOOK holy. Oh, and the sinners that NEED God are not going to be found in churches looking like us. SO If I can't go to them cause I am sacrificing my separateness...than what is the point?

2) When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about Holiness and Holy living 5-7 years after he preached to them salvation. Why do we expect our new believers and people new to Christ to look just like us immediately after being "saved"? Then when they do not, or struggle with outward holiness, we brand them as rebellious or bad soil?

3) If you judge a persons salvation by the way they look on the outside. You are missing the point completely. The Pharisees looked the part and new the doctrine inside and out and yet ...well you know the story?

Just a few thoughts...what do you think?
 

Interesting, where is your scripture for a bar hopping, hanging out with wine bibbers Jesus?

I've met a beautiful compassionate Jesus but the scriptures always portray him as him reaching out and helping these people after they approach him or come near him. We have a lot of strippers, drunks, druggies and such come to visit our church and lately we have been seeing more this than ever. I pray that God will lead me to them and he does.

I run into them all the time while I am out and about I have even spoken about God to people while they were slurpping down beers with bleary, teary eyes. However, I do not hang out in bars and hob nob with prostitues. I do know a well meaning fellow that hung out in gay bars to "wittness". Surprise, surprise we found out that he was too weak to fight those spirits himself he is now gay. No where in the word of God do we have to wallow in unrighteousness in order to reach the lost. God brought me out of it. I have no desire to partake of it again. I've been redeemed. If we do not show a difference in our personal lives than the lost they will see us as the phonies we are.

No matter how pretty we dress it up. Justifiying unrighteousness by pointing to a pure Savior's mercy to the lost souls doesn't make a lot of sense. "Come out from among them and be you separate!" "If your light is hid under a bushal" how can they see that the God inside of you is the light, the truth and the way? Seeing we are encompassed with so great a cloud of wittnesses let us lay aside every weight and sin which doth so easily beset us! "Go thy way, and sin no more!"

God's spirit will draw them. He is GOD HE MADE THEM. He is the one who saves them, not US! We can be his hands and feet and obediently serve him. But He is their savior. He is so effective of a Savoir, that when he cleans them up, you will see them sitting clothed worshipping at the feet of Jesus! You've gotta meet the real Jesus! He's not weak and puny.
 

It is absurd that all the old timers are so caught up on wether or not TV is bad for us. It's about time this resolution passed. I mean this is 2007 not 1940. If we want to reach a lost generation, we have to be willing to do whatever it takes to reach them. Even though this passed, we are still light years behind the exposure that other organized religions are getting. If it was up to the 900 or so that voted no, we would be having church in caves and not letting anyone else join the church. Pathetic
 

One thing I have noted from moving around the country due to my job and attending many different churchs of the UPCI. There does not seem to be anything "standard" about "Standards". From one church to another there are vast differences of acceptable behavour. I notice also it seems to depend on what the pastor's kids have done or participated in as to what things are now allowed. This is even more true when the kid is now a pastor in the same church.

I honestly do not care about tv, monitors, video games, the internet or any of that. These are technologies that are the result of the contrivances of man using the abilities and the resources God has given us. Many of them have permeated our lives and are considered "must have". It is sinful human nature that causes these things to be used in such a degrading fashion. It is up to the people to choose what content they want to partake of. You could have sticks and clubs and still they would be used in a wicked manner. That does not make the stick or club wicked. People are wicked by nature and that is why we need a Savior for our souls.

What I do care about is obedience to the voice of God and again, one of two things are happening here, either God did in fact speak to the older generation regarding tv in the home or He did not. It is discernment that I am trying to use to discover which one it is. My opinion based on discernment (using both Spirit and intellect) at this point is that God did in fact use His foreknowledge to warn and teach people about the coming evil of tv. What started as innocent has become quite vile. What used to be "Leave it to Beaver" is now "Check out my Cleavage". So I see the hand of God in the forewarning provided. I do not believe that from the early years they could have predicted what is on tv today. Therefore I do not believe that these ministers are following God any longer by desiring to use a medium that God told them not to. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. The converse implication is also evident and can be spoken as "If I do not follow Christ, do not follow me".

Again, If the older generation did not hear from God and said they did and now these people today are correcting the "error" then it is just as bad or worse. I can then no longer depend that they have heard from God as a body and therefore reject what they say as coming from God. I don't see where you can have it both ways. It is the same test used in the Old Testament that God provided to "discern" if a prophet was false or not.

I see where the UPCI has come to believe in their own power to reach the lost and not in the power of God to draw people to himself. (see Ezek. 16 on how this process happens) On the day of Pentecost it was the display of the glory of God in the outpouring of the Holy Ghost that got the attention of the people in the vicinity. This demonstration of the power and love of God gave both opportunity and credence to the preaching of Peter. It allowed him to speak the words that have rung through history as the "keys of the kingdom". The "advertising" then is the same advertising now that is considered the very best and that is "word of mouth". "Come see a man...", "Let me tell you what happened in church last night...".

If we must depend on tv and the clever advertising slogans of man to do the telling then there isn't much to tell.

I am not pontificating here. I am assesing the overall implications of this body's action and the impact it has on bringing reproach to the name of Jesus Christ and the proclaimed power of the gospel. That was Paul's greatest concern also. He stated he worked with his own hands to provide for himself and them with him so that no one could say that he was only doing it for the money. He wanted no reproach against the name of Jesus or the gospel. I do not see that kind of character at work in the fellowship of ministers called UPCI. It has shifted to numbers and being held up as great by your peers. I would rather seek God's approval.

Two last comments;

If you have a license in the UPCI then you have signed a statement that says you will not have an operating tv in your home. (it references the articles of faith, etc.) If you have one in your home then you possess the license under a false pretence and that is wrong. It sends the wrong message about what integrity is and the importance of being consistent in doing what you say you are going to do. It provides an opportunity for reproach and diminishes your proclamation of the need to live Holy before the Lord. Not the tv, that is just an instrument, but the false representation of committing to conduct yourself in one fashion and then not doing it in a willful manner.

The last thing is the argument about the use of the internet (obviously we are using it). I think of the internet as more of a giant library that contains all manner of information. The information is both good and bad and all points between. We decide what information we will use in this library. I think of tv as a "seedy" book store because sex and violence sells and is predominant in that domain. I don't go shopping for articles on virtue or articles that edify in a seedy book store. Normally they do not carry them so why bother shopping there?
 

Wow...
You know I read EVERY comment posted...
And IDK how i feel...
Honestly...
Im really choosing my words carfully...
Trying not to offend anyone...
But may I make a statement, I just wanted to let everyone know, that this ALLOWS for tv ads and what not...It does not say that you MUST use it...
But IDK I just really wish some of us could have used our words a little wiser...
When Jesus came to earth in flesh, he did not come to condemn the world at THAT time...So who are WE to judge and condemn one another...
IDK thats just what I think...
I love each and everyone of you...
And maybe we should give it a try...
I mean it is HOWEVER a step in FAITH...
And it is to edify Jesus...
So stay strong everyone...
PRAY...
FAST...
and HOLD ON...
=]]
I was thinking today, and I looked up the word "Failure" and It say the INABILTY to acheive a certain goal or task... And we ALL have some ability inside of us, So really the only thing we are failures about is trying to fail...
=]]
Just a little thought to keep you thinking...


Thomas Buxton
Louisiana
17yrs old...
Recieved the Holy Ghost November 4th 2006
 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can contact me at Buxton.Thomas@gmail.com
Or myspace@ WWW.myspace.com/thomasbuxton
 

UPC preachers are not allowed to have televisions? The UPC preachers in Northern Virginia have televisions and they watch programs not just DVD's.
 

Article VII, Section 7, Paragraph 31 said:
No minister having a television in his or her home shall be permitted to hold license or credentials with the United Pentecost Church International.

Deleted part by resolution 4:
Furthermore, no United Pentecostal Church International minister shall be permitted to advertise or minister on television. This does not preclude unsolicited representatives of the news media covering functions.

Added part from resolution 4:
This does not preclude the option to use television for advertising.

So the short answer to your question is NO. If they do, they have misrepresented themselves to others. Not much integrity if they have a tv AND a license. It has nothing to do with the tv. It has to do with the misrepresentation that makes it an error.
 

Some of you have spewed angry, misguided comments at the Men of God who vehemently opposed this resolution. Others have accused them of being archaic, set in outdated modes of evangelism, even calling these Men who have given their lives to this as "pathetic," just because they feel so strongly that this resolution is a mistake.

How Sad!

I attend one of these churches under the leadership of a Man of God who has mourned- literally mourned this decision. So while some of you in harsh spirits condemn his grief as another sign that he is just outdated, and has no desire to reach the masses, he simply stands and proclaims, "We go on as we always have! We will continue having revival!" Yet there are tears in his eyes because he has viewed the testimonies of history, and has seen this issue affect former Men of God.

He does not have a television, and neither do any of his faithful church membership. He does not surf the internet, but those of us who do believe in Covenants with our Eyes and filters- we all realize there is negative content on the internet, but we use the web for the right purposes. The plain truth is the internet does not make the television issue void. There are countless souls stren along the information super highway. However, we do not own televisions because we believe it is detrimental to us and our impressionable children. Do not confuse those of us who have placed hedges of protection in our homes as simply mindless followers of spiritual dictators. We have made the right choice, one that the UPC used to uphold strongly. I have the internet in my home,but I do not compromise my Walk with God in using it for purposes that are beneficial. It can be done, and is being done by many every day.

As some have pointed out, many do realize television and internet will all be one and the same. However, for many, many reasons, paid advertising & church broadcasts by network owned stations are, and will always be, a different set of issues than sermons posted online by some 'pentecostal media guy or girl' in the sound booth. (By the way, we do not webcast.)

To all of those who posted and have judged these 900+ that voted against them- listen up...

I am pastored by one of the ministers who have been outspoken against this resolution. He loves the truth; he weeps over souls; he preaches the message without compromise. He also teaches the need for holiness inside and out. BECAUSE OF THAT- we are now in our third building and already outgrowing it after less than two years of constructing it from the ground up; we pack out Sunday School buses, vans, and members cars; we even have full church on Wednesday night Bible Studies. To sum it up- we are having revival under the leadership of a Great Man of God.

Do not judge his heart nor his motives because they do not agree with your ideaology. It is the job of a Man of God to be the watchman...to stand on the wall and cry danger...to fall on his knees and pray intercession for the people...

Debate for and against the issue...pray for those making the decision, but, above all, quit generalizing and condemning these men who were outvoted... You are treading on dangerous ground...

Just remember...God warned the people, but the Isrealites wanted a King. God finally gave them one, even though it was not in their best interest...

It is time to pray for our leadership- all of them no matter what their vote was! If any of these ministers choose to leave the fellowship, please remember that many of them are Men of God- they do not have to have UPC behind their names to earn that title.
 

This is so interesting a topic I just had to write in, though I am not longer UPC, but was a third generation one most of my life.
How hypocritical{GASP! Someone finally said the word!}that a good majority of UPC ministers are going bezerk over this, yet I personally know alot who don't hesitate a second to turn that TV on when they enter a motel room or go to their "UNSAVEDD" relatives house and camp out in front of it for days. It also became knowledge several years ago that a manager of a "Gen.Conf.Headquarters Hotel posted on the internet that the PayPerView Porn ordered during our General Conference was higher than any other conference in that city.
The internet is still ok for people to own, yet you can get anything...and you know I mean anything...on the internet and probably do. So, why is there such an outcry now??? If you don't want to "advertise" then don't.And since you "don't watch that one eyed monster" you will NEVER know who does right?!
Come on...your hate mail is advertising who you really are inside..not your tv. Clean up your own life before you try and mandate others.That is why I am no longer apart of this organization. The backbiting,gossip,and anger is just too much to take. Reach the lost and stop worrying about if Bro. So-n-so may get a bigger church than you if he goes on TV.He will, you can count on it.But since your way is best..just be happy with the "REAL" souls you have reached through your methods..all 12 of them!!
 

I play the 'lectric gitar.....
 

This is sick! Sounds like some folks would rather see people burn in the lake of fire for all eternity with the devil and all of his fallen angels, than hear about the one God, Acts 2:38 gospel through a TV set. They be happy, cuz at leat they'd still be "holiness" don't ya' know.

I honestly believe that these Pentecostal Taliban will have to answer to God for this spirit.

And BTW, the term "holiness" has got to be the most abused, scripturally twisted word used by us Pentecostals. We've made a culture—a predominately Anglo, Southern, 1940s-style culture, into holiness and that's not what holiness is. Come on people! Frank Bartleman and G.T. Haywood had beards! The Apostles (all observant Jewish people) had beards! That's just one example of how we've become so myopic that we've made ALL our cultural traditions of men the so-called "holiness" of God.
We have literally created a Pentecostal Oral Law! A UPC Talmud! A set of man-made do's and dont's that we have made equal with the written Word of God and thereby have become guilty of the sin of idolatry. Anything made equal with or higher than God is an idol.
Yes, we all need lifestyle guidelines (aka standards) but we CANNOT put these on the same level as the Bible. Woe be unto us if we do.

I agree with a previous poster who said the UPC is not the church, but an organization. And that it has been used well so far. But if this CULT-mentality (which the whole world will witness soon if we don't repent of it) with regards to some of our standards (certainly not all, but some of them) doesn't go away, God is going to raise up another organization just like he did 60 yrs. ago to supplant it.
You can count on it.

Made two UPC's would be best. At least there'd be lot less strife and hatred amongst "the saints". The ultra-cons would happy with their org, we "liberal" would be happy with our.

But I think we would be a whole lot more powerful united then divided. But we've got to learn to have unity with diversity.
 

I really like some of the statements the previous person wrote...


Thomas Buxton
 

May I suggest this Disclaimer when UPC Churchs broadcast their services:

HELLO! WE ARE THE UPCI

We wanted to let you know that we still believe that it is a sin to own a TV. However because you are out there sinning and we are in here being holy, we thought that we would invite you to come to our church and give up your TV so that you can make it to heaven.
 

OK, so God changed his mind about TV and its use. Well maybe God had nothing to do with it in the first place. According to many, as the technology goes, so go we (tough not to).

That means a culture will define the "standards" of modesty, morality, truth, etc. Recent and ancient history bears this out. So go ahead and throw out the things that really keep your numbers down and your "cult" status up.

One step, three steps or six steps behind the world does not make you separate from it. It only makes you a little slower. Pentecostal Taliban? Are you serious?
 

Dead serious. The Taliban also do not allow TV (and I assure you that does not make them holy). A previous poster commented (apparently sarcasticly) that "we should be like all the other religions" implying that us advertising (or watching) television makes us like "all the other religions". How ignorant. We'll apparantly NOT watching TV makes us like "all the other religions" too. Wow! Now we and the Taliban have something in common! Praise Allah!

This may sound extreme, but I think there's a dangerous spiritual phenomenon going on here. We need to put it in check. It's not so much having a personal conviction to not watch TV, but it's the attitude and spirit towards those who "go against" that. We shouldn't have that spirit or attitude in common with such an extreme group as the Taliban, but we do. We may not physically kill people like them, but spiritually we are just as antagonistic towards Apostolics who aren't against TV. This may sound far fetched, but sadly, it's not. What did John say? He who hates his brother is a murderer.

True story: After the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, a Taliban man testified to our military what they did to a man who was caught going against Sharia law under the Taliban's theocratic rule. He was beaten and tortured almost to death. A group of Taliban men beat him so badly that they said they could not even tell if he had clothes on or not because there was so much blood. Then they poured salt on him to torture him more. His crime? He was caught with a VCR in his home. This is a true story, I am not making this up.

I know that NONE of us would EVER do anything like this physically (please don't misunderstand what I'm saying), but SPIRITUALLY there are those among us who have this same attitude. This same SPIRIT is in our midst and it needs to be rooted out.
 

Hello
I just wanted to comment on the whole issue of television and the comments made on this page. First of all I am suprised at all of the negative feelings about the UPC going on television. Really if we are true holiness people then we would want this precious gospel to go around the world no matter what method it got there. The bible calls us to warn the whole world and if we are to warn the whole world and tell them about the only saving way how can we deny the most effective way to do so. I also want to comment on someone who said that "maybe next year we can vote on if women can trim there hair" HOW IGNORANT! the bible never says that we cannot go on tv. and the best argument for not watching tv is something about not letting evil be infront of our eyes and if real holy people who lift up the only true name our infront of our eyes then that is not evil at all. and why would the upc loose biblical standerds that are right in the bible. lets focus on souls and the holy ghost and bringing in the latter rain instead of focusing on the little things such as tv services.
 

My, my, my you know some pretty vicious people! That was quite a dramatic leap!(grin)

Most holiness people I know are kind and gentle. They simply and quietly seek to please Jesus with a pure and clean life. They have no desire to see themselves or others on television. They just want to keep their minds and hearts pure so that they will appear unspotted on that great day that is coming. They want to exemplify a life of lowliness and meekness that Jesus Christ lived. Have you ever actually met any?

You musn't get so agitated no one is taking your tv away from you. You can now enjoy it's filthy programing and vulgar commercials as much as you like. I promise I won't come take it away from you.
 

Let me guess...the last "anonymous" blogger would NEVER be caught dead with a "demon box" in his house{in case pastor came over unannounced}but most likely watches one on the sly.RIGHT?? And of course he NEVER goes into a grocery/dept store because unholy music is playing over the soundsystem and so of course he would not get caught DEAD in a BestBuy or Office Max where videos are sold. Must be great to be so atune to keeping ALL worldly influences out of your life.Because of course if you can be so flippant about the tv. then I know just by listening to you that you certainly don't subscribe to the internet. Bless you!
PS.Please stop sounding so self-righteous..that is why UPC is still so small..yes there are a few real ones, but few and far between. Don't ask me how I know...trust me I am closer to it than you most likely could ever be.
And I hate everyminute of it. All I see is JUDGEMENT,and more JUDGEMENT, yet most of the members and pastors watch tv.and a huge number even porn,have affairs with women in their own congregations, wear bathing suits{Gasp!}on vacation and beat the daylights out of their wives. Wake up and smell the coffee! OOps...I forgot...that's even wrong in some places.
 

Preach it brother!!
I totally agree. I am UPC also and must say that it sure is not what I first thought when I joined. I see the saints in my church doing anything they want Mon-Sat and on sunday run the aisles and lead songs. I am discusted. And a preacher in my neighboring city did have an affair for 2 years with woman from another church,yet preached adultery hard and strong. I am not saying there are not good people, there are, but they are probably not the ones always judging and tearing people down.It is the real self-riteous ones who are. I say if this vote on tv. gets rid of some of those churches then good.They need to just fellowship each other. They will soon see how lonely it is and they are pretty much dooming their youth because it is hard enough when all there is is a small district, but take them out of that and they wont last long. But who cares about them anyways huh? they are living on eggshells all the time trying not to "displease" someone.
 

"Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set." - Proverbs 22:28.

I would like to know which one of you eloquent bloggers thinks this resolution does not break that Biblical commandment.

Truly, this organization is turning its back on the same foundations its founders and fathers have built. However, because of that, they also will not get the same blessings that their Fathers received.
 

"Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."
 

It is like I said in an earlier comment. Either the earlier generation heard from God on tv or they did not. If they did then why did God change his mind? Is it like the divorce issue when Jesus said...because of the hardness of your heart it was allowed it was not so from the beggining?

Or did God have nothing to do with it in the first place and we are lashing each other over a perception that has resulted from our deluded sense of importance?

TV is meaningless by itself. Obeying God is paramount at all times. That is what is important to me. Any one have the answer to this?
 

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." - Jesus, you know, that "dude" we do everything for.

I just have one thing to say to both sides that they better do BEFORE posting. You, not the "other" guy, but YOU, better pray through.

Yes, we're on TV now. For those of you still against this, stop using the cloak of modesty like a basket that covers our candle. For those of you for this, don't you DARE gloat over this decision. Don't for one minute think we can't fall by the wayside just like TBN and the false prophets they push!

Here's a newsflash for all of you. The world is watching this right now, this very thread where the "backwater UPCI cultists" (as they call us) are bickering over trivialities. The atheists laugh about the issue, but laugh more because of the infighting. "Some Spirit of unity!!! HAHA!" they laugh and mock.

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

So let's drop the self-righteous criticizing sarcasm you Pharisees! Or is your father Satan himself? (John 8:44) Shall you next mock the fallen pastors who may fail on TV, that if they have the Spirit, to restore themselves... "They could 'save' others, but not themselves".

I've heard the biting sarcasm here from BOTH sides. Sarcasm like I see here is evil, unholy, unrighteous, and an abomination before the indwelling Holy Ghost coming from the same tongue of a saint who speaks as the Spirit gives the utterance. And I rebuke that Satanic spirit in Jesus' name!

Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

You know, brothers and sisters, you all probably do things I wouldn't like. But I love you, because He first loved me.

Understand what I'm telling everyone. I don't CARE what side you are on, if you won/lost, if you spilled your milk, or how much holier you perceive yourself to be over everyone else.

This is post is not directed at everyone, but if it is directed at you, you know it. Get over yourself, regardless of which side you are/were on. Yes, I am speaking hard, but out of love. Because if this is the judgmental, venom filled attitude you normally carry in your walk with God, you are in danger of fire regardless of whether you have a TV or not.

And brother, I'll not only sign my name to that, but I have no problem preaching that truth from the pulpit if need be.

DeWayne Lehman
Lay Preacher
Calvary UPC
Richmond, IN
 

So, was that a yes they heard from God, a no they were mistaken or a I don't know if they did or not?
 

The first and greatest commandment in the Bible is to LOVE GOD. Loving God requires obedience to His Whole Word, not just a few verses that support your personal opinion.

What bothers me most is that those who cry for unity now were not saying that back in 2004 when this same resolution failed. Why didn't you accept that decision as the will of God and leave the issue alone?

Beware of those who preach love your brother, but don't preach a love for Truth and Holiness. They have a hidden agenda called EndTime Compromise.

Righteous living is not subject to popular vote
 

I believe that our heritage was passed down from Godly men and is still the truth and what we should follow today. What was written in the Articles of Faith when the UPC was established is still the same for today. Those men fasted and prayed and sought God for the forming of the UPC. How much more corrupt are the devices used by the world now than in the past years. God never saved the masses in the Old Testament. Only Noah and his family were saved out of all the people in the world at that time. Yes, I believe that we should try to saved everyone that we can, but it should be in a godly atmosphere in a Holiness church where the presence of the Lord is. I don't believe the Holy Ghost will be present on a TV set. I am sorry...Matt. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. I believe we can be witnesses everywhere we go and continue to spread the gospel by the same means we had done so in the past and are doing now. Jeremiah 10:1 Learn not the way of the heathen... Jeremiah 11:13 ....ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even to burn incense unto Baal. I am praying for the UPC that God will work the best out of this situation.
 

Okay, I’ve just got to say something since some of the logic of these arguments are weak:

The “Internet is a Library” analogy only works if you accept “TV is a library,” as you can literally watch any cable/satellite system for eternity w/out seeing anything lascivious. Think channels like: Discovery, Disney, History, Nick, Cartoon Network, HGTV, & many more. Besides, many ads on free email systems often feature females in slinky attire no matter what filters you use. No medium is immune from some visual temptation.

The “Did God Change His Mind about TV” question is wrongheaded because no one ever said God made the decision originally.

The “world defines our standards/modesty” (& thus the world defines us, even if we’re six levels behind the world) only works if you live by set (non-biblical) rules instead of biblical principles. Few specific rules last through time, while principles are timeless.

That's all!
 

We are from the school that does not watch any movies. We only use computers and the internet for business. TV is merely for entertainment. It is programed for you. Turn it on and it will play all day if you don't turn it off. What if the internet is wrong and TV is being compared to it. If it means having a TV is justified for having the internet then maybe we should not be on it either. I know lots of ministers that are not on the internet. What is in your heart will come out sooner or later.
 

You know, I start out short and end up long. Sorry.

OK, I understand the comment about God not changing His mind being wrong headed on the surface. I am going on what has been presented to me in the past as to how the tv issue was decided in the first place. The minster that was present at the original resolution said all of the ministers were on their face before God and then got up and voted 100% against it. Therefore God instructed them about the tv issue. My interpritation of the events as they were presented. That was the implication of the minister also.(I did not check the 100% fact)

The view point also assumes the ministers both then and now hear from God and that is why the question is framed "why did God change his mind?".

I am strongly for the advocation of principles over rules because of the shifting sands of time as well as constant new inventions. I do believe the presentation of what may have started with principles wound up with a bunch of rules. The rules presented as "Do as I say or forever be condemned!!!" have caused much of the harm and debate that is occuring now. The second large contributor to the debate is the lack of consistantcy within the orginization of UPCI. From district to district or church to church there are vast differences of what is acceptable and not acceptable. This is true even with the older pastors that now say they were wrong in what they presented previously. The "rules" were trying to bring some consistancy and they have failed in that regard due to private interpretations.

I am guessing, or discerning, from all I gather, that God had little to do with the issue of tv all along. That this "rule" of no tv was an invention of man and is therefore able to be modified at will. I have no problem with that. The problem to me is that so many ministers have presented the "rule" as coming directly from God, complete with condemnation. (not just this one rule either)

What it shakes in my heart is the confidence level I can have in these so called "men of God", that they are in fact following the leading of God in the leading of the church. That loss of confidence is very important in my way of thinking.

In many ways it underscores the absolute need of a personal, one on one, relationship with God in order to partake of the promised life to come.

On a side note I can tell you I have been attending UPCI churches for about 30+ years. I was pursuing a license with UPCI about the time the Affirmation Statement came out. I read it and informed the pastor that I could not, in good conscious, sign it. He tried to minimize it but to me it was asking me to espouse the doctrine of the UPC not the Truth of the word of God. You can tell me that these articles of faith are bible based but every other so called christian religon says the same thing. Call me picky but to me signing it would have been a sin. So I have settled for lay preaching, organizing and teaching in different discipleship classes and organizing community outreach efforts. Trying most of all to influence the youth to reach out in the community and do good works.

The developments in the UPCI of the past 15 - 20 years have caused me deep disappointment and there were some churchs I attended that I would not invite anyone to after they literally ran off the ones I did invite. I also see the harm my children suffered in their relationship with God and chastise myself for not getting my family out of these harmful situations. Blind faith will cause you to stay in a bad situation longer than you should.

I have seen with my own eyes the glory of God manifest as a cloud over the church. No music, no preaching, just an earnest desire to touch God by the ones present that evening. I long for that again.
I cannot remember the first time I heard the word standards. I remember when the pastor said something about no bowling and I questioned him how knocking over a bunch of pins could have any effect on my walk with God. He explained that it was not the game of bowling but the atmosphere of the bowling alley that was bad. Smoking drinking and the like. OK, I guess I can understand that but I still work in a environment where people cuss and swear and all manner of soap operas play out. Should I quit my job because the atmosphere is bad? Well no, you choose your friends there etc., etc., etc. Rules are tough because the world is a bad environment because of sin. Add technology to the mix and it can be even more confusing.
I have also seen many other astonishing things as well. That was my begining and my grounding and it is also what has kept me faithful to a group of people (UPCI) for over three decades. I can tell you they are breaking that faith and it truly saddens me.

Yea, tv is a library also. I called it a seedy bookstore by comparison. It just contains over sensationalized books by and large. Not a good place to look for good communication material.

'Nuff said.
 

I am confused by this last blog. Are you for the change or not? You sound like you are not against TV but you last statement is confusing. Please make yourself clearer. Just trying to figure this all out. Thanks
 

Principle and rules? . I looked these two words up in the dictionary. Principle--a fundamental truth, law, etc. upon which others are based. 2) a rule of conduct b) adherence to such rules, integrity 3) a basic part 4)(a)the scientific law explaining a natural action (b) the method of a thing's operation.-----
Rule- 1. an established regulation or guide or conduct, procedure, usage, etc. 2. custon 3. the customary course 4. government, reign 5. rules
Ruling-1. to have an influence (over); guide. 2. to govern, 3. to determine officially 4. to mark lines (on) as a ruler.
I don't see alot of difference in the two. Looks like they go hand in hand. Just my opinion.
 

Principle = Modesty
Rule = how every culture around the world defines modesty (which can be quite different) throughout time.

No Pentecostal I know wants to dress like George Washington or the Victorians, though they definitely clothed more of themselves in public. The rules of defining modesty change over time. The principle of living and dressing modestly does not.

When the principle and rule become inseparable, like burkas on Muslim women, it often becomes a symbol of backward thinking (though many still make it work).

Yet another great part of the Bible is how its principles remain applicable to every culture and in every time period.
 

Pertaining to burkas--that is an entirely different culture than Protestants. We have never believed in that mode of attair throughout history and never will. We are talking about modesty in dress which men wear men's clothing and women wear women's clothing. I have not seen any pentecostal women that look like the the George Washington era and I am from a large metropolitan city. We have many UPC churches in this area and people will compliment our ladies on how beautiful they are dressed and their hair. We wear modern clothing and have our hair do's are in style. But we are modestly dress and do not wear makeup.
 

Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren , whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

1Thes. 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1 Thes. 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

. I am not touching any minister of God. What they want to do or be is up to them and the Lord.
 

Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren , whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

1Thes. 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1 Thes. 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

. I am not touching any minister of God. What they want to do or be is up to them and the Lord.
 

I would like to respond to the previous blogs.

The Bible says in 2 Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves….

Phil. 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Verse 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
 

The question is asked if I am for or against the tv resolution. In a nut shell I am against it. I am just not going to pick up rocks about it.

As I had tried to illistrate, the presentation of the "no tv in the home" resolution has been presented as coming from God by older ministers that took part in that process. Now most of the sons and daughters are in the pulpit and the acceptance of what was taboo is increasing exponentially.
It is a general statement that is not applicible to 100% of the people but is by and large a true one.

I also tried to illustrate, it was the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost that caused me to place my complete trust in God. Not fancy anything else.

What I have seen transpire over the years is the replacement of the power and demontration of God with programs, dramas, fancy titles to sermons, (titles like "Living fleas on a dead dog's back") and a strict control of the service.

It seems that what people are getting today from the church is more shallow and based on a rush of emotion. (repeat chourus) They are encouraged to "get the Holy Ghost" before they are asked to repent. They are told "you got it, you got it" when they utter a few syllables of incoherent babbles. Got what I ask?

So I see this resolution as a continuation of moving away from the dependence on God to build His Church. We trust more and more in our own ability to reach the lost and that, in my opinion, is erroroneous thinking. Paul may have tried to be all things to all people but I do not believe he would partake in the use of what is seen by many as an evil tool. (including people in the world like Moddona, Frank Zappa and others)

It is a symptom not a cause.

It seems to me we are becoming more and more like the church of Laodicea. We believe that by the increase of goods (nickles and noses) that we have need of nothing.

I say we because I continue to attend a UPCI church and I continue to provide financial support to it.

Maybe I am wrong, God help us if I am right.
 

I now understand your position and I agree with you. I feel even though the ministers kept a good spirit about the resolution at the conference, that there is going to be a split. I know some of our ministers that have been against the passing of this resolution that will not be a part of this organization. They are considering this carefully and will not do any thing hasty but it is coming and then what will become of our upci. Campmeetings, youth camp, etc., have always been a part of my life. Which side will the missinaries go, what will become of our Bible Colleges, campgrounds, etc. I feel so sad about this all and I am greatly bothered about this all and that is why I have kept reading these blogs. I just need to feel some direction as to what is going to become of us all. I have always been so proud of our leadership and godly ministers. Why did this have to come into our mist when for 60+ the Lord has blessed us so much. I attend a holiness church and we have a lots of people come and go. Some stay but others do not want to abide by the standards. Do we run them off? No, but they choose not to stay. I do believe we should reach the lost. Everywhere I go people question me about my religion. So I am a living witness for God. (May I say that some of these people that approach me about my being pentecostal -- I cannot tell them from the world-- and some will proceed to tell me that they are pentecostal too, but that they don't feel it takes all the standards and rules that the upc teaches). I just listen and don't try to convince them otherwise or I am told that I am being judgmental. We have packed out two churches and have just built a new church. It will grow but with the holiness standards and doctrine that has been handed down from our forefathers. And may I say that with our location, we could have a mega crowd if our pastor did not enforce standards. I love the holiness standard and have no desire for TV and hollywood. How does Bro. Haney feel about this all? Is he aware that many of the ministers are going to pull out. This will hurt the organization financially. For the first time in history of the church, we had to pay to get into the services at conference and to view any of it online. How are we going to afford the cost of being on TV? It is sad and somehow I am reminded that every great nation in history has fallen. So it also seems with the church organizations. Is it the changing of the rules that causes this. Letting down on principles that the church was established on. Well, I will have to be patient and pray for directions of our leaders. Thanks for letting me voice my concerns. PS. I don't want to think that part of the organization wants our holiness ministers to pull out. Thanks again for letting me vent my feelings.
 

Don't the Bible warn about causing division in the church and among the brethren. Could not this be a sin within itself, regardless whether TV is wrong or right. And what about the scriptures about offending your brother. Just some thoughts.
 

Well, the question then is, who started offending who? Which one is supposed to park their conviction? The ones that want to keep the idea or the ones that have modified it?

Jesus also said, in Matt. 10:33-35 "33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

If you read the whole chapter it is pretty sobering.

How about me? I go to a church that is for the tv advertising but I personally am not. Should I support something against my will? In fact about two years ago one of our pastors talked to the church about advertising at the local movie houses because after all, and I quote, "the resolution prohibits the use of television. It does not say anything about not advertising in the local movie houses." When I had some questions I was basically told to keep my mouth shut.

"Yes masser, please don't beat me masser. I be good, honest masser. Here, take my money and use it as you see fit. Jus don't beat me masser."

Please note that there was no attempt by those that wanted it to stop pursuing the issue even to the point of knowing it would divide the body.

The other pastor at the church I attend stated to me some time ago, again I quote, "The ones that are against tv haven't been with us for a long time". I said "What kind of a statement is that? Are they no longer wanting to see people saved? Because they don't want to compromise their values then you say they are no longer with you?" There were a few other words about it as well. I think he thought I was in favor of it because he looked suprised at my comment. He no longer wanted to talk about it.

And for me there is not a church within 50 miles that I can go to that is at least somewhat close to my own convictions. For me I am deciding whether or not to even continue attending UPCI churches. This is just one more straw on my back. But I will also say this is the only format where I am discussing this item. I will not create division in the church I attend because of this. I just keep going and eating the stuff they lay out for dinner. Thankfully I can balance my diet out with prayer and personal devotions.
 

Sad situation. just don't get discouraged and quit altogether. Keep the faith and maybe a church will open up that you can attend that holds on to our doctrine. We are blessed that we have churches in our area that are of the original faith. Also, lots of the churches have gone liberal and have withdrawn from the fellowship and now you can't tell them from the Baptist. (no offence) We are just pentecostal and want to look pentecostal. Some of these churches fell so fast, it was just astounding. Let down on just a few landmarks of our past and now because I personally know them would never have known they were once of our faith. But they say we are judging them because we still look the part and they don't. Oh well, so much for that. God Bless.
 

Question about who is offending who. I will have to say that we (upci) have been a organization since 1945. If a person don't like what this body stands for then they should withdraw instead of trying to change what we have or have been. There is a web site that states that some of the churches withdrew their memebership because they no longer agreed with our doctrine, others said they are staying with the upci and are going to try to change it from within.
I must say th