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This is such a sad commentary in an UPC ministers daughters home where a keg comes in the home whenever the punk rocker mom has her say in the home? Is this an godly atmosphere? Is this the witness that you want for your neighbors and townsfolk to believe in? What is happening to our godly beliefs that wrong is wrong and right is right? My heart is breaking to see what has been done. Are the children going to think that alcohol and going to bars in the local area is permittable? I have heard from the local people that live in their town that they are "shocked" that such "conservative, once Mennonite" family would even dream of doing something like this? Sad, yes that is what is being reflected upon the UPC organization.

We should reserve judgment, even after we've actually seen the show. It is crucial that we cover this family in prayer for so many reasons.

1. Perhaps the family stedfasly stuck to ther Apostolic guns, putting an excellent witness before a sweeps week audience.

2. Perhaps the family did pretty good, showing only occasional chinks in their armor. I'm guessing, with girls this young, they might have been influencable, but I'm hoping that they were strong enough to cause conviction in the viewing audience.

3. Perhaps the family failed at their Apostolic witness. If so, the church needs to faithfully resound in our witness, by supporting, not stoning, this family in their greatest time of need. If we judge this situation like there isn't a living breathin family involved, and simply want to condemn the sin by declare purity simply because we were never put to such a great test, I fear that our judgment will drive a good family out of the Apostolic church.

I'd hate to see that happen, . . wouldn't you?

So I repeat, let's reserve judgment, and join with this family, and with God in searching for the greatest possible good to come out of the broadcast

Maybe the UPC is a CULT.

Maybe the UPC is one of the few organizations left that refuses to succomb to societal pressures.

So the Gospel according to some is......
When in doubt, expect the worst. You'll never be disappointed.

Take it from a 40 something year old that was raised UPC, by a UPC minister. I no longer go to church at all and haven't since I was MADE to go ever Tuesday night, Thursday night, Saturday night and twice on Sunday, that doesn't even count the "in between times". The UPC people think they are better than everybody else and tell you not to associate with people outside of their "circle". I missed an entire childhood and also missed alot of real world experiences because "going to the movies was wrong" or "going bowling was wrong" or "no gym because wearing shorts was wrong". I could go on all day. The UPC people are not preparing their kids for the real world, as I found out first hand at age 18. I now have an 18 year old that hasn't missed anything. My kids don't drink or do drugs. They were and are allowed to go to the movies and dress the way they want. They believe that God looks at the inside of a person, not the outside. That's what I taught them. So, don't judge a book by the cover, you just might be wrong.

Take it from a 40 something year old that was raised UPC, by a UPC minister. I no longer go to church at all and haven't since I was MADE to go ever Tuesday night, Thursday night, Saturday night and twice on Sunday, that doesn't even count the "in between times". The UPC people think they are better than everybody else and tell you not to associate with people outside of their "circle". I missed an entire childhood and also missed alot of real world experiences because "going to the movies was wrong" or "going bowling was wrong" or "no gym because wearing shorts was wrong". I could go on all day. The UPC people are not preparing their kids for the real world, as I found out first hand at age 18. I now have an 18 year old that hasn't missed anything. My kids don't drink or do drugs. They were and are allowed to go to the movies and dress the way they want. They believe that God looks at the inside of a person, not the outside. That's what I taught them. So, don't judge a book by the cover, you just might be wrong.

In response to the last comments: I am sorry that you were spiritually abused growing up, but to heap one church's/family's/pastor's spiritual abuse upon an entire organization is arrogant and flawed. Many youths from all types of organizations, at the age of 18, go on a faith exploration, wherein they discover that the "truths" that had been pushed upon them, were in fact flawed. This has led to many embittered Catholics, Born-again Baptists, and yes, even Apostolic Pentecostals.

As an adult, you now have the chance to discover the Bible for yourself. This will often lead to a dismantling of childish faith—that has been based solely on authority figures—building instead upon the firm foundation of God's Word. All young adults should go through a process of personalizing their faith

I agree with you, . . it is spiritual abuse to teach personal convictions as if they were salvation issues. Your church did it to you, and now it appears as if you are doing the same to your children (though this time it has a different disguise). What YOU believe means nothing in relation to the Truth of the Word of God.

Search the Scriptures with your children and allow them to personalize their faith in Christ; not to believe like you do. When you do search the Bible, you will see that the UPCI organization has constructed doctrines that are based upon considerable meditation upon the Word of God, in fear of a loving God.

How a church decides to apply with these Biblical principles is not policed by the UPCI. I repeat, I'm sorry you were spiritually abused as a child. I'm thankful you are out from under that spiritual oppression.

To the last-most anonymous poster: That was so insightful. Thank you for taking the time to address it.

I am the 40 something Anonymous poster.

I beg to differ with your opinion on how I was raised or treated. I am one of many that was raised the same way. I still see and talk to some other "kids" that were raised the way you guys raise kids. I'm not alone.Being made to believe that people outside of our "circle" were "bad" and weren't going to heaven is wrong.

I also disagree with your opinion that I am making the same mistake with my children. My children have never been made to go to church, but were taught to believe in God. As luck would have it, they go regularly and to a church that they have picked. I also went just to check it out and make sure that they wouldn't be "abused" or taken advantage of. It is a non demoninatiion church by the way. They checked out several different religions, including Apostolic & the "Organization" as the UPC is referred to. The were completely turned off by the pressure, beliefs, atmosphere and attitudes that were projected. That was after going to 2 different UPC churches and I wasn't even with them. I have never called the UPC by name to them nor have I "bad mouthed" them outloud in front of my kids.

You guys have a worldwide following that stays in a tight circle and reinforce everything with your annual General Conferences. I have personally been to hundreds of your churches from Florida to Canada. Like I said, I could go on for days and knowing you people like I do, you could too.

Makes me remember my Mom preaching to the Jehova Winess's that knocked on our door, then bragging about it in church. You know what I'm talking about, don't you.

Dear Mr. 40-something ...

Yes, I do know what you are talking about. I too had problems with my parents bragging proudly. I too, at the age of 18, decided to branch out on my own, searching out Truth under every rock. But unfortunate for your argument, my parents were not in church, and my Biblical (and other) search led me to the UPCI, not away from it. The problems that you are citing are problems with human nature, not with the UPCI.

My UPCI-endorsed church would not condone the bragging that you mention. My church accepts sinners, because we too are guilty of sin. It is a church of 700 and growing, and it never would have grown at all if it had conducted itself in the manner that you are describing as your childhood experience. I know many good UPCI (and otherwise) churches besides my own that carry God's truth with love and acceptance.

I also know of the bad churches. In my experience, I have never witnessed much growth in these types of churches.

As with any religion, organization, or business, there are good examples and bad examples of how things should be done. You have had a bad experience, but now, since you've matured and can now see that hypocrisy infiltrates EVERY aspect of life (not just church),please realize that it is time to stop painting with broad brushes.

Your mother was right to evangelize. . .

Jehovah's Witnesses remove deity from Jesus Christ, turning Him into an amazing prophet and not God in the flesh. Unless you do not believe in absolute Truth, this is a worthy discussion.

Your mother was wrong to broadcast (brag) to her church about her discussion. I agree with you. Does that mean that I can no longer be a rightful member of the UPCI?

(By these same standards, I assume that you have not gone to anybody to talk about how you went on an Apostolic Web site and did the same thing as your mother did.)

I am not condemning you for your beliefs. I'm glad your children go to church. I will join you in trying to weed out hypocrisy in the church.

But you should really check your heart and ask yourself why you came onto an Apostolic Web site, crying for attention, and pleading for justice. Perhaps you need counselling to process the damage that was inflicted upon you.

With a sincere and loving heart, I urge you to forgive the individuals, and even the organization that has hurt you. Are there people within the UPCI that behave exactly as you have described them? Absolutely! And like you, I would choose not to go to those churches. But with your machine gun of justice, you are trying to kill the good with the bad.

To the 40 something:

Can a "worldwide following" stay in a "tight circle"?

Everything, everything, everything, everything, is viewed through the lens of our experiences. If your experience was such that you saw UPCIers as a bunch of self-righteous, exclusionary, hypocrites, then you bet your bottom dollar that anything connected to UPC is going to be seen as such through your eyes. If your experience was such that at a UPC church you and your whole family's lives were turned around for the better, and you've known nothing but love, then anything connected to UPC is going to be seen as such through your eyes.

It is unfair to use your personal experience (over which you are obviously embittered--and let me tell you, bitterness has an insidious way of blinding you to reason or to anything positive)to brand an entire organization.

Prayer is the best form of a weapon that we have in helping these people that once knew the truth and now with a seared mind are trying to catch others in the web of unlogical thinking that the UPC is too strict, closed minded, bias, and etc. God is still a miracle working God that can still work on hearts and minds if we allow him to do it. I don't ever want that to be a stigma about me. I want a pure heart and mind and one that always has a praise for our almighty God that has brought us a long way from sin and has set our feet on the straight and narrow path that leads to Heaven. The rapture is tooo close to mess up now and not make it.

Well, just like all of the other people that I have met that are UPCI, Apostolic or Pentecostal there is never an end and you are always right. I am very happy with where I am in my life and glad that I got out when I did. I have no regrets and will continue to live my life to the fullest, everyday. I don't want to miss anything, you only get one chance.

I came to this site on account of the TV show via an online search.

I'll let you guys have it now. This is like talking to a wall. You can have your "I win" conversation - if it makes you feel better.

Too bad you guys can't watch the program when it airs though. TV's are are of the devil and the UPCI doesn't approve of them. They used to "disorganize you" if they found out you had one - unless they've changed the rules. Don't do the double standard and look at it - God's watching you.

40 Something

Dear 40 something...wow...so sorry for your experience and your bitterness...the letter of the law killeth...gotta worship in Spirit and Truth...it's a marriage that works...God's word not mine.
Pardon me your humanity is showing...I'll forgive yours if you'll forgive mine.
You were a closed book from the beginning in this...who do you think closed your eyes...pointed accusing fingers to be good and sure you left and never found the treasure God has for you.
Open the Book...the Bible and open your heart...because bottom line...it's what God's Word says.
Not our manmade standards or what we feel.
Oh...the devil BELIEVES and trembles.
God is so awesome...even now with all your blogging...you are reaching out for more...dude it is time to...become all He intended you to be from the beginning. And when it happens for you...don't make the same mistakes others have made...okay?
Be BLESSED!
Concerned

I am surprised that 'others' are allowed to blog on this sight. I tried to do so on another sight but was told since I am not in the UPC I am not welcome. I am a former UPC minister now pastoring another church. I am not malicious or spiteful, only wanted to blog with other Christians.

i'm always bemused when such strong opinions are shared anonymously ... just kinda ironic

Wow what a lot of hurt out there. I wish that there was something I could say to change some of the thinking ya'll have. I for one have been raised in this organization. I have seen some of the bad things and I have seen some of the good things, the bottom line is going to be the relationship you have with God Himself.

We all have problems inside and outside the church, but the God has placed us where we are for a reason.

The UPCI may not be perfect in some of the way they see things but don't be so quick to judge them over what they thought at the time this organization started. I will say I beleive in a lot of what the UPCI stands for but each individual has to learn it for themselves.

We need to teach people with love first and when they see the love they will be more willing to listen. This is not how the UPCI has alway done things but things are changing.

Time is to short and we are too close the Rapture to sit and pick at the little things in life that realy don't add up to anything. Divorce is running wild, teens are taking their lives, and people are surching for the truth but we are going to sit back complain about how we where raised.

Yes I am a youth pastor and the devil is attacking me and my family but I don't stop praying for them I love them praise them and do all that I can for them while still holding on to what God wants in my life.

Like others I could go on for some time but I wont.

God Bless you all, and my He speak to all of you in a very special way

Tony

Hello. I just want to say that I know Kristen personally. I am in the same upc church that she attends. For the first who are concerned for her don't worry her standards were not lowered. She did use this as a witness. She is strong in her faith and is an amazing saint of God. As for the back and forth stuff. I hate to see the hurt of the one and glad to see the child of God trying to open that hurt/closed door. And just so everyone knows each upc organization is different. I understand the one the hurt person went to was obvious over strict and inforced their own convictions instead of just the God given standards of living. I attended a church that way but now I go to a church that is open to all and is very loving. They're open. I am upc but I believe people have to have their own convictions. You obey the standards God has given us; all the rest is between us and God. We watch TV as long as its appropriate; since that seems to be the big thing lol. I hope everyone enjoys the show. I can't wait to watch!!! God bless you all Especially Sis Hoover who made it through this experience.
Love ya Sis
Sis Angela

I only saw the last 15 minutes or so of the show tonight, but I was very proud of this couple! They did not shy away from standing for what they believed. Only God knows what an impact they made on the other couple and on many watching the show. We need more folks like them. Let's stop hiding our candle under a bushel, as the old song says. The world needs to see the joy of the Lord in folks' lives.

They hid the fact that this couple was "UPC" or least they tried too.They mentioned the word "Medonite"or something like it.Nice try..aBc..just would kill you to mention UPC huh?

I saw the episode. Frankly, I think Mrs. Hoover is one classy, cool chick. I do not think her husband deserves her.

I know this is just a petty thing, but why did she not have on a wedding band? She had a ring on her middle finger

To the anonymous 40-something:

I, too, thought I was being MADE to do stuff -- go to church, dress a certain way, stay away from certain people and places. I backslid. After 23 years, I've returned. Now, I see the reasons behind all of these things. At 18 you don't, UNLESS you are in total LOVE with Jesus Christ. And until you desire to be so at the age you are, you'll continue to see things through worldly eyes.

And please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I "been there, done that" in about every area of life you can imagine. I now KNOW what separation from the world means and how to balance that with showing love and compassion. I pray that you learn, too. I pray it in the name of the Lord God, Jesus Christ.